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A | Bankless nation. Are layer threes real? Well, at least some people are trying to build them. Dgen chain is a layer three built on top of basechain. The layer two using Dgen, the token, as its native currency and unit of account, a chain built by degens for degens. Apparently the genesis story of Degen is one for the ag... |
B | Thank you. |
C | Yeah, last time was loot. It's great to be back. |
A | Yeah, last time it was the whole loot phenomenon almost a full entire cycle ago. A lot of things has happened ever since then. Joining will here on the podcast today, we got Jasic, founder of Degen, Yasik. Welcome to Bankless. |
B | Yeah, hey, nice to be here. |
A | So there's going to be a number of different conversations that I think are going to be immensely interesting as we pull out of this conversation here. Yasik first, just letting the sage here is the degen chain. The chain for degens. What's the deal here? What's dgen chain? |
B | Yeah, it's absolutely the chain for Degens. I think this is the place you want to be, or at least that's kind of the idea, you know, kind of long term. Is there anything you want to kind of know about the degen chain or specifics or something like that? |
A | Yeah. So Degen chain is like piercing through a frontier that I think a lot of people didn't realized, didn't realize existed. Uh, maybe there's two things to pull out here. First, it's a layer three. So it's a another blockchain, kind of like a layer two, except at instead of settling down to the Ethereum layer one, i... |
C | I'll talk a little bit about why layer threes make a ton of sense for DGen, and a little bit about why layer threes makes sense in general. So, with Degen, Degen is a community starting from existing token. The existing token is on base. That means that the audience is on base. So the question for the Degen chain is, o... |
B | Degen chain is a little bit, at least in my mind right now, kind of like the Las Vegas of blockchains. And actually, I think a lot of people kind think about it also in just terms of, well, crypto is kind of like the Las Vegas of finance almost to a lot of people who are outside of crypto. But inside of crypto, for me,... |
A | There's two main pillars of conversations that I'm seeing here. There's the l three conversation, and then there's the app layer of Degen conversation. As well as what is the culture of Degen? What is the unique properties of Degen block space? And then there's also the connection between these two things. What about t... |
C | So I think there's two mental models for thinking about layer threes, and this relates to how we scale compute in general. So you can think about it as essentially scaling vertically. We have layer one, we have layer two, we have layer three. At each layer, the gas fees get lower, scaling gets higher, the block space g... |
A | What advantages would a layer three like Degen have to specifically onboard consumers? Is there anything unique to the dGen layer three that it can do to produce a consumer ready experience that a layer two can't do? |
C | Yeah, so the vast majority of layer three so far are settling to base. The reason why is that base is very accessible for consumers. You can bridge really easily in and out from Coinbase. It's very easy for people to move funds in and out. And as a result, it's kind of become the de facto chain for crypto onboarding. T... |
A | But why do you need a layer three? Why can't you just take whatever we're doing on the DGen app layer and just do it on base? Why do we need a layer three? What's the unique properties that are being built here? |
C | Yeah, so if you wanted to transact on base, you're looking at one cents to $0.10. If you want to transact on DGen, you're looking at a billionth of a penny to a millionth of a penny. That is a massive, massive improvement. Because you could start giving out tips that are $0.01. You could start to take part in these exp... |
B | Okay. I also want to add to that that there is certain customizability that we could potentially add in there. Obviously, I'm not familiar with exactly all the customizations that we potentially could do, but it is possible. And we were talking about Farcaster native precompiles. Rather than calling out to a smart cont... |
A | Yasik, part of your answer that Im hearing is that Degen just has space to be far more opinionated than any of the layer twos. So base still is trying to be as credibly neutral as possible, trying to mimic Ethereum uses ETH as its currency, uses the EVM, all this kind of stuff. A lot of the layer twos are playing in th... |
B | Yeah, I think that just goes back to the customizability where, let's say base probably won't do certain things, they probably won't add the forecast or native precompiles or things like that. So they're not trying to orient themselves towards one application or something. I think for us it does make sense to orient ou... |
C | Yeah. That customizability is really important. When you can start to add your own code to a chain, you completely change what it can do. Ethereum transactions can only do so much computation before they run out of gas. You add a precompile, as it's known, and you can insert custom code in the chain that can do anythin... |
A | Bit about the genesis story of the Degen token and this whole entire endeavor. Was it always the plan to make a layer three? Josa, can you kind of like walk us through the beginnings of this whole thing? |
B | Yeah, so a lot of the things I've been doing, it seems like a lot of feedback that I get is that the whole process has been pretty thoughtful and that's been like a big word that people have used when they've come to me like, thoughtful, thoughtful. And it's like, yeah, I am putting in a lot of thoughts and effort into... |
A | So, basembers, right? Vitalik. Yeah, yeah. |
B | Anybody who's kind of like in industry and there's some big, yeah, big players and all that kind of stuff. So it was a cool space to be in, but like, all these people don't really want to be known as DJ's or they don't want to show their djin side, so. But ironically, I mean, cool, it was cool that actually the Farcast... |
A | Let's just try. It. Feels kind of like the motto of this whole, entire story. Fa let's just see if this works. |
B | Yeah, yeah. Totally amazing. But also, it's not just a shot in the dark, because a lot of this stuff, for sure, will and syndicate, they put in massive amounts of effort to make this thing work. Like, once we decide to do something, I think we do put quite a lot of effort into it and then to make it the best experience... |
A | So is there a roadmap for this whole thing? What are the next steps? Or is a roadmap more or less antithetical? When does the let's just try it stop and actually a coherent plan is put in place? |
B | So I do think the whole l three chain is something that's super important now. I was kind of thinking of it like, okay, let's give it a try. But now it seems like so many people have bridged, so many people are interested in it, that this is probably going to be a centerpiece of the whole story and figuring out how to ... |
A | Classic. |
B | Yeah, yeah, a little bit, yeah. |
A | Will, what's syndicate's whole role in this thing? What's your guys job here? |
C | Yeah. So we essentially brought together the components needed to make the l three happen. So we got on a call with Yasuk during ETh Denver. Ian, my co founder, and I were connected from our hotel rooms, and the Wi Fi was really bad. And we were, like, explaining essentially our vision of rollups and layer threes, whic... |
A | What's on your guys roadmap? So if you guys have the north star of making Djenn a first class experience, like, what's left to do with that? What are your guys ideas here? |
C | So we're keeping a really close eye on requests that people have made. So people have requested, for example, easy contract deployment templates. We deployed some of those they requested on chain farcaster signature verification. We added that. There's a bunch of stuff that we're working on around making it easy to get... |
A | One of the stories cool parts about this is that Degen is actually an arbitrum orbit stack of technology. So it's an orbit chain settling on base, which is an op stack, not fork, since Coinbase is actually an operator of the op stack codebase, but an op stack chain with an arbitrum orbit settling on top of it. Can you ... |
C | Yeah, yeah, we managed to split the baby. Everyone loves it now. I'm kidding. But having, having support from both optimism and arbitrary was amazing. So arbitram orbit and op stack, they have very different philosophies as roll up frameworks. So the op stack is very focused on the super chain vision, and as a result, ... |
A | It's been absolutely fantastic. Is there any other part of this conversation that we haven't touched on yet? Any stone we haven't unturned? Yasik, anything come to mind? |
B | Oh, man. Yeah. I don't know. There's so much happening that the last three months, things have just picked up so fast and things have been moving so fast that I almost feel like I haven't even had the time to just sit back and be like, why is this happening? Yeah, process everything, kind of analyze, and I think I prob... |
A | Who's actually the. The dgen team? Is there a team going on here? |
B | Yeah, I mean, I would say will's a little bit part of the team, but, like, not. Not like, not officially, let's say, in that sense, but, yeah, so it's weird because, like, Degen is, in a sense, almost, like, decentralized in a way, where a lot of people. So one of the big focuses, I guess, was how we distributed the to... |
A | Like, Degen, the company or the organization is. We're looking at them. It's. It's Yasik. |
B | Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's just me right now. And I think that needs to change a little bit, because on the one side, I don't think you need to have a huge team nowadays, maybe, versus a tech company 40 years ago or 20 years ago or something. So I think now you could probably build something pretty huge, maybe even mult... |
A | Well, it's pretty on brand for the dGen chains. For Dgen of you, Yasik, who are the big token holders of Degen. I know one confirmation. Made a very early, large investment purchase of Degen tokens at a pretty advantageous price. Is there any sort of initial inception of the DjEn token when that went to some certain pa... |
B | Yeah. So the biggest portion of the pie one confirmation has 5%. Now it might seem like, yeah, they got it at a good price, but back then, Degen, it wasn't. |
A | It was a huge speculative bet, for sure. |
B | Yeah, it could have gone to zero. And so they gave, like, a million dollars at that point. So, like, for me, that was like, wow, if this thing goes to zero, at least we can create a startup and keep going and innovating. So that was, like, really great. But in terms of, like, actual whales, like, I don't know who the a... |
A | Was there any amount of the Degen supply that was held back for you, the team, for building purposes, or was it completely distributed via varcaster? What was the distribution? Sorry. |
B | Yeah. So 70% is going to go towards the community, basically, and those are divided into three different airdrops. Right now we're in airdrop two. I don't know how long it's going to take to kind of, like, yeah, basically distribute those funds, but we'll see. And then 15% went to the liquidity pool, which is basically... |
A | Amazing. What a story. Yasik will, thank you so much for coming on the show and helping me tell it. Yasik, if people want to explore Degen, where can they go to either get more information or just get straight onto the chain? |
B | I think the best place would be, well, there's probably, like three places definitely go. Check out Farcaster, the Degen channel. I think that's where the genesis, that's where everything happened. So I think that's a great place to start and kind of check out the community. DGen tips is definitely a great place to jus... |
A | Cool. Yeah. Will, similar question. Where do you want to point people to to learn more about Degeneres syndicate? |
C | At Syndicate IO, we have the great blog post about Degen, explaining a bit about, you know, how it's put together, the different parties involved, why it's designed the way it is, and then if anyone wants to jam on layer threes, I'm super, super passionate about them. Just dm me will on warpcast or papper. P a p p e r ... |
A | Well, Yasik, Will, thank you so much for coming on the show bankless nation. You guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. Defi is risky. Layer threes. I guess they're probably risky, too. Especially ones in the call Degen. But we're headed west. This is a frontier. It's not for everyone. But we are glad you are with us on ... |
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